Mother Root - Kathleen Killen
Mother Root - Kathleen Killen
Host: Lisa Brenner
Featuring: Kathleen Killen
Kathleen talks to Lisa about motherhood, co-parenting, and growing into the role of a mother, even though she never thought she’d become one.
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Lisa Brenner 00:14
Hello, everyone and welcome back to Mother roots. I am your host Lisa Brenner. So we will introduce ourselves again through our mother line here. So, my name is Lisa. I am the granddaughter of Rhea, the daughter of Karen and mother to kya. Bodie. And Arjuna. And my guest today is Kathleen so welcome, Kathleen. I so I am Kathleen and I am the granddaughter of Madeline, the daughter of Pia and I am the mother of juniper.Amazing. Thank you so excited to have you here with me today.
Kathleen Killen 01:00
Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
Lisa Brenner 01:03
So Kathleen and I actually met in India. What was that oh, my gosh, it was six years ago now.
Kathleen Killen 01:15
Going up to the Himalayas, or did you meet meet us there?
Lisa Brenner 01:20
No. So we met on the bus. So I had just finished my yoga teacher training. And there was a few people from the training that we're all taking the bus together as well as a few other people. So you were one of those people other people. You know what though? Do we actually need just No we did need on the bus but because we also bought the same harmonium from the same woman in India too, right?
Kathleen Killen 01:45
Yeah, we did but we never met I don't think until we got to the bus. And I was one of those others that I was not there for a yoga teacher training. I was just in India. And I knew some people there we had mutual connections and then we ended up on a bus up like 16 hour bus ride up to the Himalayas so up to the Himalayas and then we got we had matching harmoniums
Lisa Brenner 02:18
Yeah, amazing. Oh, yeah, this is so great. Yeah, so I'm so happy to have you here to talk today. Yeah, great. So to start off, a couple of questions that I like to ask everybody but what does motherhood mean to you? Like what does being a mother mean for you?
Kathleen Killen 02:41
Wow, that's a huge question. And I think it's motherhood for me is it's so all encompassing. And I don't necessarily think motherhood means having a child I think motherhood is so much more than that. I feel like it's an energy and an essence. And I know so many women who don't have children, but they are mothers in so many ways. And so I think motherhood is an energy you bring. I think it's a sense of nurturing. It can be for yourself. It can be for the world. It can be for little ones. But I do think it's it's like a state of being and an energy.
Lisa Brenner 03:34
Hmm. Very well put. Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, not necessarily having children. Like I know. Yeah, I do know so many women that embody such that mothering energy. You could just feel it. You're in their presence. Yeah, yes.
Kathleen Killen 03:50
And I will I will say like, I don't think I never really wanted to be a mom. So I never wanted to have a child and I I don't really think I had that mothering energy for me until I had a child. And then like it really started to come out and odd but I needed to nurture that and it wasn't it didn't come super naturally to me.
Lisa Brenner 04:22
So interesting that you went there right away because that's also the other question that I like to ask people to be a mom. No, that's fine. Because I just find it really fascinating as well. Because it was the same thing for me. I never had intended to have children and didn't think that that was a role I wanted to play and I always felt very awkward around small children. You know, funny stories, I'm sure like the front of mine always still shares how awkward I was with little ones. But then after I actually had my own child when I first was born, those mothering instincts for me, like immediately kicked right in.
Kathleen Killen 05:00
Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting thing. I definitely did. Not I never had dreams of being a mom. I also was extremely awkward around children. I mean, I would shake their hand when I met them like I was just completely not the mothering type. My ex husband had two children from a previous marriage. And when I met them, I think they were six and four. And I mean, I just didn't even have that instinct, then I wasn't really the mothering type in the sense. And for me, when I had my daughter, I would say, I didn't like you said how you know that that mothering instinct came out it didn't for me. So I'm not gonna say I was a bad mother. I wasn't bad. But I still didn't. It still didn't I still didn't really connect with my daughter in that way. Like I, my ex husband until my daughter was about four was really the primary caregiver. And partly because I worked all the time I had I was the main breadwinner of the family. And I worked really long hours, and he was amazing with kids like he just was like, amazing, amazing with kids. And so it was something he was like wanted to do, in a sense that he had that connection. He was so so great with kids. And I wasn't and it wasn't until I became a full time single mom, which you know, I remember thinking, oh my god, like i i It's all on me now. And my instincts kicked in like it was like I had been birthed as a mother when I became a full time single mom, as strange as that might be. I've actually never said it like that before. But that's to me. When I became a mother in the sense that I felt those maternal instincts. I felt that connection. And now I think, you know, anyone who knows me really well and knows my relationship with my daughter would say like, yeah, you are a mom through and through. It's my most important job. i It's my the number one priority in my life, but it wasn't always that way.
Lisa Brenner 07:29
Well, I can also, you know, that makes sense. Like it's understandable if your husband was still fulfilling that role while you were the one at work. It can just be easy to like, oh, well, they're already so good at I'll just let them kind of take over that role. And they're not in your life anymore. And then yeah, after we got ties, yeah.
Kathleen Killen 07:56
And then you have to reprioritize Exactly. And you know, I became a single mom rights Well, a full time single mom right at the beginning of the pandemic. And while that was extremely hard, it also was amazing timing because my daughter was going through really, really deep grief. And I also was going through grief at that time as well. And we were able to have like forcible cocoon men's, I guess, like we just had to kind of stick together we were, you know, inside for months. Very little outings. And, you know, I was working from home, she wasn't going to school. It was we had this time to bond and it was through the pandemic really, we became so so close. And, and it really shifted our relationship.
Lisa Brenner 08:58
That's amazing. Yeah. So interesting, because that whole pandemic time was a real eye opener for a lot of people, right? And either like really brought your relationships closer together or really exposed where the issues were.
Kathleen Killen 09:14
Yes, so my day job I'm a divorce coach, and I'm also a I'm a registered psychotherapist and my qualifying status, so I'm opening a practice quite soon. But my clientele the need for divorce coaching went way up during the pandemic and I also saw it from my other coaching clients, some people, their relationship started to thrive and one of the things that I heard from quite a few people is that let's say there was a main caregiver in the family. In my case, like, you know, back then like before, the pandemic, it was my ex husband, but for others, let's say it's like, you know, whoever the partner is, they didn't necessarily know how much the other partner was doing. So let's say like they know how much the other partner was doing in terms of their primary caregiving and the pandemic really shed a light on Oh, my gosh, that person really has to do a lot like they do a lot. So that was coming up quite a bit. Not in other cases, in some cases, you know, relationships are just your repairable they're, you know, can I limping into the pandemic and they just didn't make it through. But in other cases, I, you know, I knew people who were on the brink of separation before the pandemic, and then because of the pandemic, they actually reconnected and no longer separated.
Lisa Brenner 10:43
Right. Okay. So interesting. So how old is your daughter now?
Kathleen Killen 10:53
She is turning nine and five weeks. Oh my gosh, I should know that right away because she reminds me of it every day. She's five weeks. And she's awesome. Like she's just she's into so many cool things. And I have found it so interesting. Becoming a psychotherapist also because when you become a psychotherapist, you really need to look at your own generational trauma and your upbringing. Because I you know, for example, I have this professor that always says to me, whatever you haven't dealt with in your life is going to show up in your practice office like that is going to be what shows up. So you have to deal with that stuff. And my mom did the very best she could, knowing that she had a really difficult, very, very difficult childhood. And so I feel like I'm very conscious. I'm a conscious mother in a sense. I'm very conscious of my reactions to my daughter and how I'm showing up for her and how I'm modeling things for her. Because I do feel a responsibility of, you know, healing some of that trauma, that generational trauma.
Lisa Brenner 12:14
Right? Absolutely. Yeah, that was the first thing that pops in my head too. And you said those things showing up in your practice I like they absolutely show up in our motherhood to you.
Kathleen Killen 12:24
They do show up on our motherhood they show up all the time and I don't know like becoming a mother i i felt like i started to judge my mother more becoming a mother. So that's one thing I started to judge my childhood more like now that I'm a mother. I started to judge my mother more but at the same time, I also started to appreciate what she went through and also knowing you know, what Her background was and how she grew up. That really she did the best that she could and you know, I think we all are like I you know I am showing up and I'm doing the best I can it doesn't mean that I'm perfect. It doesn't mean that I don't have not great days but there there are things that are non negotiables for me, you know, I if I ever get upset at Juniper which happens I don't get mad in the sense like I don't raise my voice because that's something that used to scare me as a kid. But I also say I'm sorry. And so I guess as a therapist, like I want to have that moment of repair with her. So if there's something that's between us, it doesn't mean that you know, she can do whatever she wants. Like it's not like that. But if there is something between us and I have maybe not reacted in the right way, I definitely go to her and we talk about it and we repair from what that was because I felt like I didn't really have that in my childhood. We came from different I mean, we're pretty much the same age Lisa we came from different generations to where to children were often you know, to be seen not heard and there wasn't the same level of respect and there was a different power dynamic and all of this stuff and I just I wanted to raise my daughter a bit differently.
Lisa Brenner 14:24
Yeah, yeah, I definitely approach things with my kids in that way as well. Yeah. Yeah, like my ex husband to always just jokes that you know, anytime stuff comes up with the kids, he's like, Well, this is my first time too. So. Yeah, we're all learning and processing together. And yeah, we're not gonna get everything right. Like we're human. But it's then acknowledging that and having that conversation with our kids and getting their input and their feedback as well and
Kathleen Killen 15:03
Yeah, it's different and I think like you're you're talking about your ex husband like co parenting to is a whole other thing like being a single mom is different. Being a full time single mom is different and then co parenting is different. Like it's you are parenting you know, some people don't co parent they parallel parent or whatever that is right. Like it's there's so many different ways to parent and it's true like you're parenting with someone like who's not necessarily resides with you, but you're still a family. Like, in a sense, there's still a family unit there.
Lisa Brenner 15:40
Right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I have thankfully with my ex. We get along very well and CO parent extremely well together and still spend time together. As a family. So, so good. Yeah, so I definitely know it's not the case for a lot of people as well.
Kathleen Killen 16:00
It is not is not the case for me. But I definitely I love seeing even in my practice, really healthy co parenting relationships. Is is so nice to see. I wish I had that kind of relationship. I don't for various circumstances, but it's you know, I think it's such an amazing thing for the kids for you to be able to model that like it is okay to not necessarily be with that person anymore. But how do we come together and and parent effectively and like amicably and it's yeah, it's amazing. It's not always it's not always possible. So I don't want to present like everyone should aim for this. Because it's definitely I can speak from experience. Not always possible, but it's amazing that you have that. Yes, I'm very thankful for sure.
Lisa Brenner 16:59
So are there certain practices that you have for yourself to help yourself stay grounded and rooted?
Kathleen Killen 17:11
So I think that some of my practices are to be grounded and rooted to parents are also the same. practices I use because I see clients and and so I need to have that sort of self care. I wake up really early, and I wake up really early like round five because I that is my time and because I'm a full time single mom, I you know, I don't have that like when if you're co parenting, some kids will stay like you know, be 5050 or you know, stay half the time, whatever. I don't have that. So, I am on and I don't have a lot of support physically around me. So if I want alone time, I need to make it myself. So I get up really early and I do exercise either through like yoga or pilates or strength training, but I have to move my body and then I meditates and I journal and I have a pretty strict morning routine and I do find that if I don't have it. My mental health starts to slip I get really anxious I'm not able to be as resilient as I could normally so that's really important to me. For me it's the morning routine. And then once I'm done my morning routine, you know the routine with my daughter starts and you know to get her out the door for camp right now or school and doing all that with her. She's an only child and she's really mature. So, you know, she, to me, she feels really easy to parents, but I think we just have an understanding like we she knows it's it's just to me, not in like a in a bad way but she helps with chores and she helps do all those things. And it's her household as much as it's my household. It's not, you know, it's our household together. So she takes ownership for a lot of a lot of stuff in the house. So I would say I need to have those grounding practices and I definitely definitely noticed when I don't I notice it in my patience for anything having to do with child care and child rearing. And I also noticed it in my just overall resiliency.
Lisa Brenner 19:40
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Kathleen Killen 19:42
Self care practices do you have I'm always curious to know Yeah, I definitely have a few things that I always fall back on as well. And you know this from our Vedic perspective as well, I'm very I vatta to to write so I also really struggle with routine and maintaining that so it's something that I have to keep, you know, it'll fall away so I have to keep coming back to it and keep reinforcing that into my life. But like my yoga practice is definitely one of my key. Yes, practices, like I like that, again, like that movement to my body. The breath work as well. And I also find for myself, like, not necessarily having like that early morning time or that kind of scheduled time, like okay, like now it's time for my practices. For myself, I find it easiest to integrate them throughout my day. So as I'm doing different things, and it's like I work with new moms. A lot as well. So it's something that I find really works as you're trying to, you know, get into some kind of routine and figuring all these things out. But often, when I'm cooking food, like prepping and cooking food, I'll really use that time to you know, move around my kitchen, whether it's just allowing the energy to kind of guide my movements or sometimes I'll put music on and dance so just really allowing my body to free flow and get that movement in. And the breath work I'll do at different times in the day to like with our kitchen doing things or if I'm in the shower, I'll tend to really focus on my breath work in the shower, sometimes when I'm driving. Yeah, so movement and breath are really big and and just a few other little things that I like to do for myself. Definitely getting outside is really important too.
Kathleen Killen 21:34
That's really important to me, too. And you've read something really, really important is that the breath work and like you know, other people may interpret that as you know mindfulness I can do mindful whereas breathing meditation. I find that small moments throughout the day is actually better than having like a sustained 20 minute whatever practice because a lot of my I use mindfulness a lot with my clients and like I can't sit for 20 minutes and it's like you don't have to sit for 20 minutes. I choose to sit for 20 minutes because that's been my practice for like 15 years. But those mindful moments throughout the day like when I'm driving I do it like I'm just more aware, you know, I you know, even when I'm at my desk, I take a moment and I look at the plant that's in front of me and I really look at the leaves and the color and the shine. on them. And you know, just having those little moments can do so much good. And you know, research does show that it's just as effective. As you know, sitting on a cushion in the morning, which I love, not for everyone right?
Lisa Brenner 22:47
Yeah, that's very true. Yeah, I think it's just it doesn't matter what it is but it's just something that you can like for me I just like I really was practices helped me drop in like I can just really feel my energy like I'm right down and roots into myself. So sure. It's just finding whatever works for you to kind of bring that in the habit to feel centred.
Kathleen Killen 23:13
Can I ask you a question about motherhood?
Lisa Brenner 23:16
Yeah, of course.
Kathleen Killen 23:18
When, when you first became a mother What do you think was?What surprised you the most about it? About that, like initial? Oh my gosh, I'm a mother now.
Lisa Brenner 23:35
Ah, good question. And it's like thing first thing that comes up just like like just the overall intensity of it. Yeah, like and like how much of my time and focus and energy it actually took. And, you know, maintaining that on a severe lack of sleep? Yeah. Sleep deprivation is also just horrendous. Trying to care for this. This new Bing that's solely dependent on you for absolutely every last little thing. Yeah. And doing that while you're not at your highest level of functioning. That is hard. That is hard. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, there's this like that end of it, but then also just the just absolute amounts of joy and love that you just never thought you'd be able to really experience or not even that you thought you were but it's just it's just it's just so present and so so bear that you just like you feel like you're gonna burst.
Kathleen Killen 24:58
Yeah, yeah, it's true. I think that too. I often have moments where I just am like, oh my gosh, I would not want want to be anywhere else but here like this. Is you know, when I'm with my daughter and just doing like baking cupcakes or doing whatever just hanging out with her. I'm just like, I am so grateful for this, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Every stage is so just so fascinating and so wonderful to watching your children get older. I don't know. 1512 and five.
Lisa Brenner 25:38
So getting into teenage years Yeah.
Kathleen Killen 25:43
When I met you, they were not that old.
Lisa Brenner 25:48
Yeah, we're not. Yeah. And you know, I always say to the teenage years, like right from the time that I was pregnant with my daughter, I thought, you know, okay, like, I can do this. I can handle babies and toddlers and kids like this is gonna be fun, but thinking about parenting a teenager was always like, this terrifying like deer in the headlights. Like, I don't know if I can do this. I was a horrible teenager.
Kathleen Killen 26:14
I think that's why you probably thought like I can't because I feel like that too. I was horrific. Like the most rebellious and I don't want to parent me as a teenager. Oh my gosh, I will not survive it.
Lisa Brenner 26:29
Right. I could always told you it's like, oh, well just wait till you have kids. They're gonna do this to you. Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll see. So far that's not the case. Okay, do I have hope I have. Yeah. Yeah. My daughter is incredible. And I feel like we've got a really close really beautiful relationship.
Kathleen Killen 26:49
And yeah, so that's good for you nurtured that. That's not just by accident. No, yeah. That's amazing. I hope that that is the case for me as well. And when I when I was thinking when I asked you the question about what surprised you What surprised me was how strong mothers can be. I I didn't ever I knew I was a strong person. But I didn't fully realize how much I was capable of until I became a mother. So I went back to work. When my daughter was six weeks old. I had my own business at the time, and I couldn't take a mat leave. And I was I had had a C section. So I was like, you know, I'd had a C section. My body was still definitely recovering and when she was three months old, I needed to go to the UK on business trip. For a week. And I was breastfeeding at the time and so I was like pumping every three hours on the plane in bathroom stalls in the middle of London and like all this stuff, trying to do this and I I remember the pain the ache of leaving her when she was so young number one and then also having to like I wanted to make sure I had that supply of milk for her and so to keep that up and just being so exhausted my body not close. To being where, you know, it was in the sense that like, not not how it looked, but how it felt on the inside. And when I've had other hard moments in my life, I always think back to that time and I think if I did that I can do this. Like pandemic if I did that I can do this when I became a full time single mom if I can do like if I did that I can do I'm doing you know I'm finishing up my master's right now. I'm working I'm you know, parenting if I did that I can do this. And I think it's amazing how strong women and mothers are. It's incredible.
Lisa Brenner 29:17
Yes, but yeah, that is so true. And you know, we often don't give ourselves enough credits. Oh, are the things that we're doing?
Kathleen Killen 29:30
Yeah, we don't. And I think that will actually were a good example of something because we met in India, and both of us had kids. And we both went on our own. Like, I know you were doing your teacher training, but I also want to my own, my daughter was two at the time. And I'm sure you do this too. Like I had to repair so much in order to like set the family up in order to do that to be able to go but I had always wanted to go to India. I felt it was the right time. I had called me to go there was work I needed to do there like inner work. And I did it and I think like you had a similar from what I remember is similar calling and to go it is not an easy thing to make time and also like I'm don't want to, you know, diminish. I had a partner at home who was holding on before for me to be able to do that which you know, is my ex husband but I still give him full kudos for doing that. And he was amazing through it. But we allowed that like I think there's I mean, I felt judgment from other moms for sure. They're like you're going to end up on your daughters too. And it's like yeah, I am I'm going not going for five months like I'm going you know for whatever two or three weeks it was and it's something I needed to do and I definitely was am a better mother for it. What do you think?
Lisa Brenner 31:04
Yeah, I yeah, I totally agree. It was interesting in my case, too, because yeah, going to India is also something that I had always wanted to do. And the yoga teacher training as well like my entire life like I found this practice when I was like eight team and grew up in a small town like yoga studios didn't even exist, Ben. And I ended up taking a class through like a community college in the next city over so it's like this whole thing. So it just drew me and then just, you know, everything about India just kept calling me in and you know, I began studying our Veda and I was doing that practice for a few years and so this was just kind of my natural next step. And but I never thought that I would actually go or be able to work that out. And the training with Sharon happened to pop up through another friend so somebody else that I like was it was more of an acquaintance somebody I just kind of knew happened to post about their friends that was hosting a yoga training in India. And, and I was like, Oh, wow, like this sounds so great. And like the whole itinerary and where we were going and then the cost of it as well. I was like, wow, like, this is, this is incredible. But I was still like, why I can't do this. Like I've got I've got two children and they were six and nine at the time. And it's like how like, how can this all work? And it was my ex husband's also that was like, you've wanted to do this since I met you. And he's like, If not now When? He's like, just go. He's like, Well, like, but what about this and this? He's like, we'll just figure it out. He's like, just go you need to do this for yourself. So you know, it was like having that permission to do this was still really hard. I had so much guilt and I never even like the morning that I was leaving to go or that night that I was leaving to go to Toronto to get on the plane like I was just, you know, in tears leaving my kids and yeah, it was just this whole thing and I was gone for five weeks and that was my first time ever leaving my children as well. Here I was I feel like a country that is and..
Kathleen Killen 33:24
That's so hard and I remember she you know, you know, I mean, you know the swell is a healer. What our mind body connection is so strong and the week two weeks leading up to my departure. My back started to just like, go haywire and to the point where I couldn't even walk. And it was like the stress and the guilt and it was like what would prevent me from going right? Well, if I can't walk, how am I going to traipse through India with a backpack and you know harmonium which I didn't know. It was all because of the stress like that is such a like, think about that like you to like having that stress that guilt. I had it to, you know, have I was leaving a two year old like she can't well and I still and I know there was judgment from people I know I well more, more so. I wouldn't say my friends but some older family members like is it just as not you just don't do that. You don't do that. So kudos to us for doing it and for making that time and that space and following our heart's desires and our calling to do that. And then also, let's give kudos to them. Then the exes who held down the fort. Well, we did that it's like no small feat. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Lisa Brenner 34:53
That was pretty amazing. And life changing, right? Very life changing.
Kathleen Killen 34:59
Yeah, very life changing. I can't believe Did you say it was six years ago? Yeah. Must have been if no, my daughter. She's turning nine. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because it was. Yeah. February Yeah, February that we were there. Yeah. Mm hmm. Amazing. Now. Yeah.
Lisa Brenner 35:21
So incredible. Oh, gosh. So I can say is there so yeah, so like, what kind of like what kind of things do you and your daughter love to do these days with each other? I do. See lots of your posts that you're always walking and out in nature.
Kathleen Killen 35:43
I mean, I wouldn't say she loves that as its portrayed. I did name her after a plant but she resists. Although I will say yeah, we do. I try to get out in nature a lot. I love love. going for walks with our dog and with her um, you know, she's shifting like as a nine year old, almost nine year old she's really shifting and but we bake together still she likes to go see movies with me and we cuddle. We read books together. We have we watch baking shows. Were just really, you know, I am careful to make a distinction. She's not my friend because I want to like make a distinction between that because I am still her mom, but we love spending time with each other. So we love that, you know, the closeness that we have and I really doubt we I think you know we do mundane things and it's fun. We go to in my local area we have like a little beach and kind of small lake and we go there a lot and we have family as well that we go and see we have a pretty non traditional families. So she has half sisters from my ex husband's first marriage and so we're really close with them and I'm really close with my ex husband's first wife. So hard for you have to have a chart to kind of figure that out. But I'm also really close with my daughter's aunt. And so we have a really unique family situation and we're very close. And it's amazing because it's a group of six girls slash women and we're just it's a beautiful thing. I love that. That's something Yeah, yeah.
Lisa Brenner 37:41
Family is what you make it right.
Kathleen Killen 37:44
It is it is and yes, I have like other family more, you know, my my, my board lead family I was born into but there is definitely beautiful links and we're connected by pain in a lot of cases but also deep, deep love for each other. So very grateful for that. We spend a lot of time. Yeah.
Lisa Brenner 38:11
That's beautiful. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. That's so great to have such a close relationship like that with your child as well. Right? It's like yeah, we're there mom, but it's also really great when you know, you also do consider them a friend and actually enjoy spending time with them and things together.
Kathleen Killen 38:31
She's my favorite person. I would I would want to spend time with her more than anyone else. Really. It's, I really, really would and yeah, I we if you had asked me 10 years ago like as I was or you know, almost nine when I was pregnant about to have her if I first of all, I never thought I'd be a full time single mom. And if I thought that I would have this kind of relationship and this deep closest with my daughter, I would be like no way like I just wouldn't even have occurred to me. And it wouldn't have occurred to me that I would love motherhood quite so much because I didn't at first and I really grew into the role. So I do that's amazing.
Lisa Brenner 39:25
That's great. Is there anything else that you'd like to share with everyone?
Kathleen Killen 39:30
It just I'm so grateful that you're doing this podcast and you know all mothers stories are so varied and you know, so different depending on your background and your circumstances. And I just think it's like there's no one right way to do it. For sure. I'm so happy that you started the podcast and I'm happy to be on so thank you.
Lisa Brenner 39:53
Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you for coming on today. It was really lovely to see you again. It's been a long time and it's really lovely to chat. Yes. Thanks so much. Thank you. All right, amazing. Well, I will definitely share all of your information in the show notes for everybody as well. If you'd like to connect with you are sure. Okay. Thank you, Kathleen. Take care, bye.